This is advice for American woman on how to “clean up” in dating by cleaning up dating. No gimmicks are involved. It’s a straightforward approach. Return his calls? Admit that you like him? Demand respect from him? Yes, it can be that simple.
Many early video games were wars of attrition against an increasingly unforgiving machine, with no clear ending. You could achieve a high score, but you never finished the game. The original NES version of Tetris, becoming increasingly difficult as the game progressed, was literally impossible (without hacks or cheats) to play at level 29. The pieces fell faster than the game could receive input from the controller. It killed you off. Before that was the original Pac-Man, which simply crashed after 255 levels– considered an irrelevant bug, as the designers expected no player to get that far. Both games were phenomenally successful; that they were never “completed” did not reduce their appeal.
Many other 1980s video games, as well, were unforgivably difficult, but surprisingly engrossing nonetheless. They had to be hard, as the game required repetition if one were to pack 100+ hours of gameplay into such a small space as was available at the time (on the order of 32-256 KB). Important to note, in the study of game addiction, is that the losses contribute as much to addiction as the high scores and successes. Yet enough about video games; let’s move our ludic focus to a different type of “game”: dating.
The goal of dating is the happy ending, a thrilling and lifelong partnership. It should be “winnable”. What happens when is you “beat the game” is that you find a lifelong partnership that never loses its luster, as is the case for a small set of couples. Many obstacles block people from achieving this successful outcome, and one among them is an addictive but losing approach, that has infected the urban dating scene to such an extent that virtually everyone is familiar with it: combat dating.
Combat dating is a dating process wherein asserting one’s own, and assessing the other’s person’s, social status is of primary importance, and treated as much more crucial than the “traditional” purpose of dating– getting to know, understand, and eventually love another person. In combat dating, the display and judgment of social status are achieved through subtle put-downs, displays of dominance, and bad behaviors (“shit tests”) designed to provoke strong, and potentially revealing, reactions. So-called “pick-up artistry” is the male facet of combat dating, but it has an equally ugly female component, in the form of not-returned calls, last-minute cancels, and inappropriate, rude shit tests.
Combat dating has the illusion of being a future-oriented activity. The Rules, while advocating combat dating (“never return his calls”), claims to be a road map to marriage. I’m sure some women have gotten “a ring on it” by behaving this way, but it’s not the foundation of a respectful relationship, and it’s only going to make everyone lose in the long run. People can marry despite fatal resentments created very early in the relationship, and the woman who refuses to return calls, or transparently pretends to be more busy than she actually is, is planting some very destructive seeds.
There isn’t the space to get into this, but aloof behavior by women doesn’t stoke the “hunter” or “chaser” instinct. It inspires the rape instinct, one that decent men have evolved so far from that they’ve extinguished it. In modern society, a woman is extremely unlikely to be raped for refusing to return calls, but when she ends up dating a string of overbearing assholes, she shouldn’t be surprised, because she’s stoking male resentment. An aloof, cold woman inspires a man to want to destroy or dismantle her, and this is why such women invariably find the most unhealthy relationships.
Winning combat dating is like winning a war, which, as a friend of mine says, is like winning an earthquake. The “game” is designed to feel winnable, but each success is utterly empty. So you’re a man who’s slept with his first HB9, even though she was terrible in bed? Or you’re a woman who has five men attempting to contact her, each leaving minute-long messages despite your refusal to return calls? Great job, Sisyphus. Now, those of us who aren’t interested in the pointless loss of time can discuss a different accomplishment: how to escape the hell of combat dating.
On this matter, it’s women who will lead our culture out of this mess. This is because there are already men who eschew such practices, but they are generally too naive and “gameless” to enjoy significant success. Men cannot re-civilize dating unless a significant proportion of women are on board with this change. In order to abolish combat dating once and for all, a “critical mass” of women will be required to step up. Here are four (out of many) ways a woman can remove herself from the combat-dating hell, making herself a highly desirable girlfriend.
1. Never sleep around. Casual sex begat combat dating. When such an emotionally loaded decision is expected to be made so soon, a hostile environment ensues. The “three-date rule”? That’s idiotic; you often know nothing about a person after 3 dates. If sex were expected to happen after the establishment of a love relationship, and therefore months off in the distance, we’d have a much more genteel and respectful dating environment. A woman who wishes to maximize her desirability to the best men is advised never to have sex outside of a committed and loving relationship. Then, dating can take a more relaxed pace. As for the men who’ll vanish if a woman doesn’t sleep with him after 3 dates? No loss; they weren’t worth dating in the first place.
2. Be enthusiastic. Return his calls. Women are afraid to be “too assertive” with men, as if to show genuine enthusiasm makes a girl seem “easy”. Often, they’re afraid it will make them seem slutty. Obviously, this is ridiculous. This aversion might have made sense in the 1890s, but in 2009, there are so many actual sluts out there that no one’s going to pass judgment on a woman for (gasp!) asking a man out to coffee. Men respect assertive women.
Also, it’s crucial that a woman make time for a man. Many women mistakenly believe that for a woman to be constantly busy is a sign of high social desirability. Wrong. To a man, it’s a sign of disheveledness and stupidity. A woman who forces a man to “apply for time” is not casting herself as desirable, but leading him to think of her as flighty and disposable.
The woman who refuses to return calls is going to be tossed out of bed as soon as she “gives it up”, and forgotten after a month if she never does. Once conquered or written off as a loss, she’s discarded. By contrast, the gal who returns (or even initiates) calls is communicating, I’m a great girlfriend. She’s much more likely to get a good man to stick around, regardless of when she has sex with him.
3. Demand respect. Although a great girlfriend is enthusiastic about and admiring of her boyfriend, she should never be a doormat, but an equal partner. Admire and grow to love him, but also love yourself. “You’re awesome, but so am I” is the best attitude. It’s not just women who value confidence in a prospective mate. In the long term, confident and assertive women are considered the most attractive. It’s much more meaningful to be admired by someone who holds herself in high regard than by someone who doesn’t.
4. Be very sexual– with him. Once in a sexual relationship, initiate sex. Know what you like, and demand it. (You masturbate, right? If not, start.) Don’t hold back. Express pleasure when he kisses you. Breathe heavily during foreplay. A reasonable man never loses respect for a woman because she’s sexual with him.
These four suggestions come from a list that could be miles long, but indicate the general shift in womens’ attitudes and behavior that needs to take place. None of these suggestions involve any deception; all of them call for above-board assertiveness and a degree of honesty that qualifies as “extreme” by the standards of modern dating. This is because, in truth, the single most important aspect of being a great girlfriend is being a great friend, and more important to being a great friend is being a great person. In this light, the combat dater’s quest for romantic success by being a horrible person should seem absurd and foolish. I hope I’ve convinced my readers that it is.
Most people, after high school, don’t get to know someone for a good 100+ hours of conversation before they jump into bed. It’s just not possible.
A lot of men push for sex early. If they haven’t “gotten any” by the 5th or 6th date a lot of them just move on. Many men sleep around, keeping an eye out for girls who can become a girlfriend after they’ve established that the “chemistry” exists.
It’s not just players who do this, but men who think it’s the “unwritten 3-date rule” or men who just don’t have a clue how to get girlfriends. Women started doing the same thing, putting the cart before the horse so to speak. Pop culture has given many young people very bad habits in dating.
I think that women should use this fact to their advantage. Losers are going to press for sex early, and select themselves out if they don’t get it. Quality men will be more willing to wait ten or more dates. Also, it’s easy to tell whether the “chemistry” exists long before you’ve had sex with someone.
Okay, I really need to be more careful with my word usage. Instead of “it’s just not possible” I should say, it’s uncommon. Delaying physicality happens more often with long-distance relationships, of which I’ve had several. Zero physical contact for at least a good month or two.
The advice is not for women who are naturally aloof. It’s for women who are very enthusiastic because she only wants one guy and gets obsessive about him. What happens is the guy will be “keeping his options open” because he knows this girl is a sure thing. Often he thinks he can do better.
The main reason to “combat” is due to opposing goals and beliefs, so I agree that ending combat dating is a good idea. If the guy is also enthusiastic about the girl, and the attraction is mutual, then the “game” of push-pull is not necessary. I had this with my guy. He didn’t want me to pull away at all, nor did he pull away when I showed my single-minded devotion to him. We talked for hours, every day and night, for 3 months.
A girl doesn’t want to be too needy or clingy which does drive men away. “Never” returning calls is ridiculous though, and bad advice. Calling 10x a day after you’ve only just met? Also bad.
A balance must be struck. This actually applies for most things. Being too enthusiastic looks desperate. Being too demanding of respect smacks of self-entitlement. Being too sexual and initiating sex too often can make a guy feel less masculine.
Asking people to be “honest” is also difficult. They can either be too blunt, or they’re too cowardly to say what’s really on their mind. People do this dancing around and play all these games in order to sniff out “what’s really going on.” They even feel like it’s fun because of the mysterious, exciting element.
So much of this comes down to abandoning common sense and basic social skills, which are rarely used because being normal and pleasant is “boring.” In the west, gentlemanly guys are “normal” and therefore “boring.” On the other hand, I grew up in a culture where it’s normal to kill off female babies because they are worthless, so to me chivalry is great.
Women who are “aloof”, at least as I use the term, should shape up or prepare for spinsterhood. Shyness is fine, but coldness is one of the most unattractive traits in a woman.
Obviously. That’s just overbearing and uncouth. As much as I support “above-board” approaches to dating, there’s excitement in some subtlety and mystery.
I agree. There are subtle lines that shouldn’t be crossed. It’s great when a woman holds her own in a relationship and refuses to tolerate my bullshit. On the other hand, it’s very unattractive when a woman is so defensive of her “equality” that she castigates me for expecting the basic contract of a relationship (e.g. that she’ll make best efforts to have time for me, rather than filling her calendar with pointless shit because it’s her “right” as a “liberated” woman to do so).
Yes. I think that women want to marry men who are strictly more masculine than their fathers. The check on this escalation of expected masculinity is that, at a certain point, the fathers vanish, and the children of those men tend to rightly view machismo as a negative.
I’ve noticed a disturbing and surprising correlation. The more machismo there is in a society or ethnicity, the better and more refined the womens’ tastes in men tend to be. Women who are exposed to machismo on a daily basis realize that it’s mostly toxic, whereas women born into cultures where it’s muted (such as U.S. white culture) are blissfully unaware of this fact and crave it.
The more machismo there is in a society or ethnicity, the better and more refined the womens’ tastes in men tend to be.
This strikes me as completely backwards based on personal experience, based on what I’ve heard, and based on family members.
Nordic cultures have probably the least machismo of all Europe. Are you saying their women have the least refined taste? That would match neither my personal experience nor what I’ve heard from various other people.
There is no machismo whatsoever in my family, as far out as I know people (second cousins, etc.). My female cousins seem to have picked extremely high-quality “nice guys.” My family is mostly German and some Swedish; I am 100% Northern European (and look it).
I see where you’re going with this, but the basic correlation you’re trying to draw strikes me as wrong. There’s some other key factor here. Perhaps parenting: extreme levels of personal responsibility were simply DRILLED into us as kids. In my family, for example, carrying credit card debt is viewed as unspeakably absurd — unthinkable except in the direst of emergencies. To this day, age 27, I get lectures on such topics as (before my last trip) not losing my passport to a pickpocket. I wouldn’t in a million years DARE to bring some of the girls I’ve hooked up with anywhere near my parents. (Although I’ve been educating them some about the modern realities of the dating market.)
I don’t know anything about Scandinavian dating cultures, so those could be an exception to my assertion. I really don’t know. Also, my assertion that machismo-ridden cultures have refined, cultured women (as a reaction against machismo) is confined to the upper-middle-class. In most ethnicities, the upper-middle-class women are refined, educated, and cultured. In suburban American (“SWPL”) whites, this is usually not the case.
For example, upper-middle-class blacks, Eastern Europeans, and Latinos understand machismo because, even though it’s not a problem at their social level, it’s a negative trait associated with their racial and cultural backgrounds, so they have to deal with the idea of machismo on a regular basis. They don’t like it at all. This means that anti-machismo is woven into their culture. It’s simply not acceptable for a “proper” upper-middle-class woman to date a thug, gangster, macho or badboy. One who does so is rightly regarded as a slut and a social class degenerate.
On the other hand, SWPL whites have so little machismo in their culture, and bend over backward to accept everything. So the visceral disgust attached to a woman dating a badboy is not nearly as strong, and Hollywood tells girls that badboys can be reformed and hunky, so a lot of girls grow up craving this sort of man.
You would almost never hear of a rich, educated black girl sleeping with or dating a gold-toothed drug-dealing gangster thug. She’d never associate with such a guy. On the other hand, for a rich, college-educated white girl to get split open by an 80-IQ redneck alpha “hunk” is not unusual, because it’s understood within SWPL culture that these men are “hot”.
Scandinavia is probably better than the US as far as the dating market goes. On the other hand, I’ve heard that casual sex is fairly common in Scandinavia, which is an extremely worrisome sign if true. The people who are rewarded on the casual-sex market are such raving assholes that, within a decade of casual sex becoming accepted, both genders are wrecked.
On the other hand, SWPL whites have so little machismo in their culture, and bend over backward to accept everything. So the visceral disgust attached to a woman dating a badboy is not nearly as strong, and Hollywood tells girls that badboys can be reformed and hunky, so a lot of girls grow up craving this sort of man.
I’m not really cut from the SWPL cloth. My parents are very traditional Midwesterners. Regardless of their politics (my dad is more conservative, my mom is more liberal), both are very culturally old-fashioned. They were both early Boomers (born 1947) but seem to have bypassed the excesses of the 60s.
If you’ve read The Corrections, the parents in that book are not too far from my parents in a lot of ways.
There’s one key thing you said that I think would not apply in my family: “bend over backward to accept everything.” In my family, there are very clear expectations about acceptable vs. unacceptable ranges of behavior (and there is a very Catholic element of shame involved). The “acceptable” way to live your life, as a man, is to do well in school, get a good job, manage your money responsibly, get married to a quality girl, and have kids.
It’s amazing the extent to which these values are “brainwashed” into me — it was maybe a year ago that I had, for the first time in my entire life, the thought that I could take a much lower-paying job in the service sector with less stress and shorter hours, where I’d meet girls on the job (both coworkers and customers), and where the average girl I met could better relate to my life (I have yet to meet a girl who can relate to my computer industry jobs). Not that I think I’m going to do that, but I had never even considered it an option.
I could never tell my parents about my escapades out at the bars; it’s way outside what they would consider acceptable behavior. (And I can’t say I entirely like it myself, but until I find an alternative option…)
I think that is more of an extrovert trait, and not necessarily that she is trying to be righteous or liberated. You sound like you are probably more introverted and do not have many social engagements. You should probably take that as a sign that the woman is high on the I-E scale and that you are unlikely to get along.
Extroverts gain energy from socializing, whereas introverts lose energy and have to recuperate by being alone or with close family. When I think about how much I hate being at a loud party, that’s probably how they feel about sitting at home doing quiet things. Some extroverts loathe being alone so much that they have to go out, so they do fill up their schedules with lots of outings.
Sums up my view fairly succinctly. My father vanished, leaving my mother to try to make me think all men were cads. I saw a lot of non-caddish men around me in the States, and decided that the caddish men were the “bad guys” and that they should be avoided. I know intimately the kind of havoc that wreaks on a family. Never liked the guys that all the other girls went giddy for, though they never cared for me either.
I’m in the middle on the I-E spectrum. I tend, like most people, toward extroversion, but I’ve learned to thrive on my own. The isolating childhood of a person with a 150+ IQ, growing up in a working-class environment where going to college is far from taken for granted, required it.
I like being alone, but I hate being forced to be alone. This is why the stark decay of the modern woman frightens the shit out of me. If a genie offered to introduce me to my ideal woman on my 32nd birthday, the catch being that I’d be single and sexless for the 6 years up to that point, I’d take that deal in a heartbeat. I can deal with intermittent loneliness, but I don’t want it to be a permanent affair. Given the utter monster that the American woman has become, it seems like the latter is a distinct possibility.
I have a relatively full social calendar, but my friends recognize that dating and work have a place in my life. I wouldn’t completely blow a friend off over a girl, but I would prioritize meeting someone new, who might change my life substantially for the better, over “yet another” Saturday night at the regular dive bar. My friends don’t object to this, since we want each other to be successful.
This is why it infuriates me when a woman cancels or ends a date because some friend of hers has a minor “crisis” and “needs me”. Her cat looked at her the wrong way; so fucking what? It can wait. If her “friends” were true friends, they’d want her to be successful in her dating life and not cause such disruptions. But they aren’t; they’re driven mad by jealousy and therefore want to monopolize her time and sabotage her dating life.
There isn’t the space to get into this, but aloof behavior by women doesn’t stoke the “hunter” or “chaser” instinct. It inspires the rape instinct, one that decent men have evolved so far from that they’ve extinguished it. In modern society, a woman is extremely unlikely to be raped for refusing to return calls
But she might be raped for turning him down to his face. Rejection can definitely trigger violence. I’ve had men react violently when I refused them. Not even refusing them sex but even something like turning down a date or a kiss will get some of them to react like this.
Although I suppose this is more of a danger for black women since they’re seen as “easy prey” and are expected to be grateful for any male attention they receive.
In my family, there are very clear expectations about acceptable vs. unacceptable ranges of behavior (and there is a very Catholic element of shame involved). The “acceptable” way to live your life, as a man, is to do well in school, get a good job, manage your money responsibly, get married to a quality girl, and have kids.
Same here. German (specifically Catholic Bavaria) culture stresses conformity. Anstand und Ordnung. Integrity and order. And don’t even get a German started on the evil that is easy credit.
Although, concerning combat dating specifically, I must say this: there’s an element of this in modern marriage as well.
Some men take rejection horribly, but my point about the “don’t return calls” approach is that it doesn’t work in the way some women– the women who play that game– think. It makes some men (assholes) sexually interested because of the rape instinct but it doesn’t make them want to stick around post-coitus.
On modern marriage, what do you mean? There’s definitely some playful teasing and chasing going on in a healthy relationship, but I’d hope that the overt nastiness you see in combat dating (not returning calls, shit-testing) doesn’t exist in a long-term relationship. Certainly, I’ve tried to avoid that behavior in all of mine.
On modern marriage, what do you mean? There’s definitely some playful teasing and chasing going on in a healthy relationship, but I’d hope that the overt nastiness you see in combat dating (not returning calls, shit-testing) doesn’t exist in a long-term relationship.
No overt nastiness but because modern marriages are so fragile there’s a definite wariness underlying most relationships.
Examples:
Sterlization
Typical, “we’ve had 2 or 3 kids and want to give up active birth control conversation”:
Him: So… I’m tired of condoms/the pill. We should move to something more permanent.
Her: You’re right. How about I get an IUD?
Him: But that’s not permanent.
Her: Yeah, but it lasts for 5 years or so. Then you just get another.
Him: Oh. I’d… I’d rather something more permanent. What about you get your tubes tied?(Why does he care? For him it’s the same result so why does it matter? Answer: tubal ligation is the ideal for a married man as it renders her unattractive to the rest of the high-betas; they don’t want a sterilized woman.)
Her: Surgery? Oh… (Hedging her reproductive bets: if he leaves her and she has to look for another man then she doesn’t want to be infertile. She’s still young and pretty enough to score another high-beta.) I don’t think so. It just seems so drastic. An IUD would be better.
Him: (She’s given birth twice and she’s afraid of an outpatient procedure? He knows the real deal.) It should be something permanent. I’ll have a vasectomy. (Why would any guy in his right mind do this? Simple, in today’s world 2 or 3 children is ideal. Even if he leaves his wife he’ll still be responsible for their welfare and reproducing with another woman would be akin to giving up on his first prodigy. He’s very satisfied with the 2 he’s produced and judges his wife to be a good mother so he chooses to not only put all of his eggs in one basket but to completely bury the basket and sit on it like a mother hen. This has the added advantage that she can no longer cuckold him. But it means that he now has to watch her like a hawk.)
Men who have had a vasectomy report, on average, higher libido and increased feelings of jealousy and anger. There is no apparent physical cause for this.
This kind of conversation, with it’s hidden undertones, appears periodically in married life. It’s behind the “when should she go back to work?”, “is it okay for her to travel alone?”, “how often should he check in when on a business trip?”, “is she allowed to go out for lunch with a male coworker?”, etc. conversations.
We’re happily married but we’ve all seen too many “happily married” marriages dissolve around us so we’re sleeping with one eye open. It’s sad.
That is sad. What caused those supposedly happy marriages to fall apart?
I’ve never been married, but I’ve been in a 2+ year relationship that seemed headed that way. It was long-distance for the first half of that, and she had a lot of male friends, and it didn’t bother me. I never worried about losing her to another man. I figured it would be something having to do with either me or her if the relationship failed, and I was right.
Although I hate to say this, it probably gets a bit more nerve-wracking as people get older. At 25, no one would even think of chasing a married or seriously taken person. At 35, there are so few normal singles left that I’d imagine more people are tempted (and contrary to what the Roissy-ites assert, I think the average 40-year-old single man is going to make more efforts toward a 35-year-old woman than a 25-year-old, especially if he’s looking for a serious relationship) to steal.
What caused those supposedly happy marriages to fall apart?
Snapped up by an outsider when one of them was going through some sort of weak period (depression, illness, pregnancy, lost a job, etc.). I’ve see it over and over again but it’s still a shock every time.
At 35, there are so few normal singles left that I’d imagine more people are tempted (and contrary to what the Roissy-ites assert, I think the average 40-year-old single man is going to make more efforts toward a 35-year-old woman than a 25-year-old, especially if he’s looking for a serious relationship) to steal.
I agree. Most men don’t want more than a 10-year difference in age. It’d be like dating your daughter otherwise. And there are so many singles/divorcees who are nibbling away at married couples.
Being an almost-30-year-old married woman I can confirm: older men are very interested in stealing us. I thought children would be a deterrent but it seems to be the exact opposite. My husband has been shocked by the reactions I’ve gotten from coworkers and friends he’s introduced me to (yeah, even the married ones) and now he’s making, “Are you sure you want to go to the Christmas Party?” noises and has stopped bringing people over.
He’s already fired a contractor that was installing windows (so we have a huge bay window missing molding) because the guy straight-up hit on me while my husband was at work. And he chased an arborist out of our yard when he came home on his lunch break. The guy had completed his work but was reluctant to leave. He kept finding “helpful” things to do (like installing the ladder on our pool and trimming our maple tree) and making excuses why he couldn’t go yet. On the upside, we got about $500 worth of free work done and our garden is much improved.
He’s acting more and more jealous. As if he can hide me under a rock, or something. I’d mentioned homeschooling before (common with gifted children) and he hadn’t been so enthusiastic but now he’s all for it. He likes the idea of keeping me at home for a bit longer. If I went back to work I’d be plunged right back into a majority-male environment and have to travel frequently.
I think he’d been lulled into a false sense of security because I’d been pregnant back-to-back. Now reality has jumped-up and bit him. It’s frustrating because I’m a very loyal mate and it annoys me that he doesn’t trust me. But, like I said, plenty of trusting spouses get taken for a ride nowadays.
It’s gotten ridiculous.
Maybe you should stop giving off signals that you are available, eh?
I know, I know, you aren’t doing that. Do I believe you?
Not so much.
You are the non-feminist, feminist 2.0 Want the benefits, but doesn’t want to be labeled.
Black & German wrote:
Because of the extremely biased court system, men have very little incentive to get divorced when the kids are under 18. I would imagine 80%+ of these “surprises” are your female friends. Also, men aren’t all that sneaky when they are unhappy. You can tell. So a “surprise” is a woman finding a replacement before she leaves.
Thank you for sanitizing reality with the standard, VERY STANDARD, feminist “genderless” statements.
Black&German said:
If older women can’t compete with younger women, then they have to be removed from competition somehow. I know! “All DECENT men would NEVER date a woman more than ten years younger.”
All Shame Guns FIRE!
I know, I know, you are just Declaring Reality…. like a typical woman. The Reality YOU WANT. In which you don’t have to compete with younger women.
Why would you be worried about having to compete with younger women? You aren’t on the market, ARE YOU?
I think you are.
Black&German wrote:
IF HE LEAVES HER says it all, doesn’t it? Perhaps your list of possible reasons is a little more limited than it should be?
To the men reading this, once your wife sleeps with another man, she will almost certainly ‘transfer loyalty’ to him. You are SCREWED at that point. Lack of Trust is the Golden Rule. An pound of prevention is the only way that actually works.
Black&German is setting herself up for the ‘just happened’ scenario. Proper prevention will force her to make a conscious choice… and women HATE that.
A number of your assertions are almost correct but your conclusion is still false.
1.) I am not a flirt. I am vivacious, which is something else entirely as it is separated from sex. I am the same with everyone, young or old, male or female, rich or poor.
I’m not at all subtle so that when I am sexually available I don’t “give off signals”, rather I’m so blatantly obvious that it’s as if I’ve painted a large “Please fuck me” sign on my forehead. At this time, that sign is not present.
You are obviously missing the point entirely. My behaviour has not changed from before (and shall not change barring a lobotomy) but the reaction from the male population has increased and intensified. That is a clear sign that the issue is not me but them.
3.) I would imagine 80%+ of these “surprises” are your female friends.This is true and we all know that most divorces are initiated by women. But it doesn’t detract from my original premise: modern culture is toxic to the institution of marriage.
Everyone is on the market as, these days, even married persons are part of the market. That is my point.
That you compulsively “clean up” female misbehavior is hardly a “almost right”. It IS RIGHT.
And since women are so heavily influenced by their ‘sisters’, the ‘sisters’ you are with would give any man cause for deep concern. Maybe you should consider that next time one of your ‘sisters’ starts in with the bad talk about your husband.
Who are you loyal to?
I’m afraid I’m not quite as woman-hating as you are so I think we will have trouble reaching an agreement.
No woman I spend time with bad-talks my husband.
I could be completely wrong, but I think Ridiculous made a pronoun error and meant to say “bad talk about HER husband”, the point being that you shouldn’t be friends with a woman who is disloyal to her husband.
And I’d agree with that. If a woman mistreats her husband, talks badly about him, or leaves him for another man, and the guy wasn’t an altogether bad person, you need to push her out of your social circle (and possibly invite the aggrieved husband in and give him support). Otherwise, your husband will get nervous when he sees you taking the side of a misbehaving woman.
Well, of course! And I do. I do the same with men behaving badly. But I have generally high standards for my friends.
It’s more difficult with relatives as “blood is thicker than water” and all that. Even if you cut-off contact with them you’ll still end up sitting next to them at the next wedding/funeral/reunion.
Old family friends are also often difficult as they tend to be people your parents/siblings invite over to parties. My mom’s best friend dumped her husband for a much younger man because he was “getting so boring”. I try to avoid her (as her casual treatment of her man of 10 years disgusts me) but we have the occasional run-in. But, really, these people are everywhere.
We were at a family barbecue recently and on the way home we were talking and realized that, although all of the couples were married, more than half were on their 2nd marriages.
Interestingly, all of the interracial couples were on their 1st marriages. It’s just anecdotal, I suppose, but I don’t actually know a single IR couple that is divorced. I suppose they’re out there, though, and I’m sure someone is going to post that they know of one.
This sounds reasonable. I’m sure you and your husband will be fine. You sound like a great woman, and I’m sure he’s a hell of a guy. You guys are really lucky to have found each other.
I think IR couples are likely to have a bimodal distribution of success, with a much larger set in the more-successful category. There are race-fetish couplings that are likely to fail, because they’re together for shallow reasons or the person expects the person to fit into a racial caricature– the submissive Asian housewife, for example.
On the other hand, most IR couples I know are people who take love and relationships very seriously and aren’t going to let something minor be an obstacle. So I’d imagine that they’re going to have a very low divorce rate.
This is very true, and something that younger people who are entering into marriages now or thinking about doing so need to realize. The market doesn’t stop because you are married. There are no more moral boundaries around marriage that are respected, because infidelity for men and women alike is so plentiful today. The culture pays lip service to marital monogamy when in practice the % of people who are actually loyal in marriages is dwindling. It’s because of that reality that the market doesn’t end when people marry.
I actually think that married people who are looking for “strange” are more inclined to hook up with other married people because this is “safer” in the sense that both can be counted on to be discreet, and it’s less likely that one will turn into a Glenn Close type of character. In other words, it’s more likely that the pair can have a discreet, “safe” affair which is less likely to threaten the marriage of either. At least that’s the thought going in — problems arise due to the reality that people (especially women) tend to emotionally bond via sex — but that sometimes only becomes apparent once the affair has commenced, and it also doesn’t apply to all women (or men).
It’s for the same reason that affair relationships tend to proceed in a very accelerated way, often practically starting in the bedroom: the pair are not looking for the white picket fence and all of that, because that is what the spouse is for. Instead they are looking for passion and sex. Hence the preference for a married affair partner, because he/she is less likely to see you as a spouse replacement, and more likely to keep the relationship as one of passionate lovers.
There is no way around this today, really. We live in a culture that makes men and women alike feel entitled to constant fulfillment, especially in terms of sex. In that environment, infidelity is going to be fairly common, unfortunately. Some people are beginning to suggest that open marriages should become the norm, but I seriously doubt that this will ever be the case — human sexual jealousy is too visceral in men and women alike for that to be a solution for all but a relative handful of couples.
Exactly. That’s what I’m referring to.
My partner is the same. He is very jealous because men are so kind to me. So, you are not the only woman in that situation. I’ve had men do totally outrageous things out of “kindness”. I think a lot of women (regardless of age, attractiveness, ect.) go through trust issues with their partners because other men are going to be men.
I’m always very disappointed in the amount of married men that I meet. It makes me terrified of marriage. And trust me, every man at least looks.
This is just part of being a woman. I know of women who are in their fifties and sixties who go through some of the same things you’ve (black and german) mentioned above. Men should understand that there is nothing “special” about that kind of attention or treatment toward their women from other men. It happens to most all women. Their women aren’t being singled out. The sooner men realize that, the less jealous they will be.
I don’t think it would be much consolation for a married man to know that the attention his wife is receiving is “non-special.” In fact, that make seem worse. With constant attention and kind treatment from men, the opportunities for his wife to cheat are endless.
Of course, my personal stance towards jealousy is that behaving jealously is not the best approach towards a relationship. First of all, it communicates undertones of distrust. Secondly, it is acting on weakness and fear rather than out of confidence and strength, whic are more desirable traits. Third, if she’s going to cheat, she’s going to cheat regardless of your jealousy, or perhaps in spite of it. Therefore, though feelings of jealousy may be natural and normal, in our modern society it is counter-productive to act on feelings of jealousy.
As a libertarian, I respect people’s free choice, but will respond to their choices with my own.
With constant attention and kind treatment from men, the opportunities for his wife to cheat are endless.
Yeah, that seems to be his reaction. “But all my friends go through this too.” isn’t a comfort to him. Especially as some of them have left their husbands for these guys.
I would hope you’re not friends with them after they leave their husbands for them. If a woman divorces her husband for a man she met while they were still married, unless the man was a jerk (and your husband would agree and would side with her), you should probably end the friendship.
Most men assume a woman with slutty friends is a slut, a woman with cheating friends will cheat, et cetera. Your husband might be more at ease if you found a diplomatic way to end your friendships with these women. It also sends a bad message to your husband if you remain close to the cheating woman, because it’s like you’re taking her side.
Yeah, but don’t men usually start having “endless” opportunities to cheat as they pass into their 30s? It seems like men and women reach approximate parity around 28. So the women have a lot of opportunities to stray, but so do men.
In my last serious relationship, my girlfriend was jealous and I was generally not. She used to get mad when I was “hit on” by other girls, even though I didn’t even notice (or care). I also knew that 90% of them wouldn’t give me the time of day except for the fact that I was with someone attractive (preselection)– another reason why I didn’t give their attention much thought or respect.
Yeah, but don’t men usually start having “endless” opportunities to cheat as they pass into their 30s?
Not really. Not if they’re married with kids. And not with highly-desirable women.
Most men who cheat, though, usually do so with less desirable women than their wives. This probably applies to cheating women, as well. This doesn’t make it less hurtful, of course.
I’ve noticed that as well. Sometimes the women are actually shockingly undesirable. Ugly or complete airheads. I think it makes it even more hurtful. It’s like: “You left me for THAT?”
Thank you, Rachel!
Yes, I keep telling him that my friends experience the same thing and that it has nothing to do with me. My sister and my mom go through this, too. I’ve seen it firsthand.
A few weeks ago a German cousin of mine tried to kill himself. He came home from work and the guy his wife had been cheating on him with (he had absolutely no idea this was going on) confronted him in front of his house. He got really angry and hit his wife and she took the kids and left with her new boyfriend. So he went in his house, shut the blinds and swallowed every pill in the house.
My aunt came over to surprise him for HIS BIRTHDAY (yup, it happened on his birthday) and found him lying comatose on the couch. My cousin’s fine now (in psych treatment) but when I told my husband what had happened he just looked at me in shock and left the house. It really upset him. We’d just seen them a few months ago at a wedding and they seemed so happy.
And now he complains if I even want to go to the library or go shopping for boots. Before if I left the house alone he’d just say, “Have fun!” Now it’s “How long will it take?” “When will you be back?” etc. And he watches the clock and makes a comment if I get back later than expected, “Wow. It sure took you a long time!” Every horror story we get wind of makes him more nervous.
Don’t mean to scare you, Cless. Just wanted to warn you that it can be bad out there even if you are married. The whole world’s gone crazy.
“I don’t think it would be much consolation for a married man to know that the attention his wife is receiving is “non-special.” In fact, that make seem worse. With constant attention and kind treatment from men, the opportunities for his wife to cheat are endless.”
Silas, I think you may have misunderstood my point, maybe? I was saying that this treatment is so common for most all women that it’s nothing special. It’s not unique to JUST HIS woman. If he realizes that this is somewhat universal, he would understand that it may not necessarily encourage her to cheat.
Also, if a man has a spirit of jealousy, he’s going to be that way regardless of the situation. He’ll “create” things to be jealous about.
Black and german, yes, it’s true. We agree! I don’t think I’ve every met a woman who doesn’t have some kind of story regarding dealing with men (if not several stories)lol.I have a million myself. Just as your examples show, there’s always going to be some men that women have to encounter.
This is one of the things that terrifies me about marriage. Because a lot of the attention is from married men. I always have men co-workers, acquantiances, ect. who complain about how unhappy and unsatified they are in their marriages. Even the most seemingly happy couples. It’s sad and inappropriate. BUT I have learned a lot about the male pysche in regards to women and marriage. Tt’s terrifying to think that you (women in general) could be the one at home while your husband is at work complaining to another woman about you and your marriage. If I could, I would much prefer to be in a long-term committed relationship because it seems that there’s something about that piece of paper that brings out the worst in some people.
I think you hear a lot more complaints because those are more likely to be aired than positive things people say about their marriage. No one’s going to roll into work and say, “Guess what, guys! My wife and I had amazing sex for the 709th time last night!” It would be obnoxious. So you get a biased sample.
Also, a lot of men get angry when their girlfriends/wives get hit on, because the woman doesn’t seem as militant in stopping it as he is. The man is furious, and the woman is “being nice”, as she has been for decades, even when she has no interest. The guy wants the girl to tell him off and possibly humiliate the jerk, but it’s not her nature.
In my last long-term relationship, I’d “be nice” to women who were “obviously” hitting on me, just because I had no clue most of the time.
The guy wants the girl to tell him off and possibly humiliate the jerk, but it’s not her nature.
Yeah, that’s true. But it’s hard to be mean.
Yeah, I’ve had guys at work complain to me about their wives and compare me to them. Nauseating. Have some respect for your wife, dude! I get hit on by married men now. I was under the illusion that a wedding ring on my finger would make a difference but it’s just changed the tone of the attention, not the amount.
What I find most disturbing is not the adulterous attention itself but rather what it says about the institution of marriage. People don’t take my marriage seriously because they don’t take their own seriously. It weakens your marriage even if you’re not tempted to cheat. The constant reminder that “there’s someone else out there that wants me” eats away at your relationship. That’s what my original comment was about. It’s not combat-dating, it’s combat-marriage. Each person is constantly checking the status and looking to shore up their own position. Instead of making decisions based solely on what’s best for your family you start thinking about contingency plans.
Being a stay-at-home mom means I’m constantly bombarded with such messages from well-meaning friends and family. Do I have a fuck-you account (a secret bank account with money in it)? Shouldn’t I go back to work and restart my career so that I’m better-placed if he decides to leave me? I better lose that post-pregnancy weight FAST or he’ll be looking for something better.
That’s just broke.
That’s horrible. I’m sorry to hear that you’re surrounded by such shitty behavior and that you have to experience that.
What do you think happens in these peoples’ marriages that makes them so obnoxiously light about it?
Well for most of the guys it boils down to: my wife is fat and she doesn’t have sex with me. For the women: my husband doesn’t appreciate me (read: too little attention).
But mostly it’s just the general culture. Nothing’s sacred anymore.
Men also get more attention when married — preselection plays a role in that, as well as married men being “safe” for flings (especially from the perspective of married women) because they are less likely to go “Fatal Attraction” on you. Quite a few married men will tell you (well, not you, maybe, but other men may be told) that the wives of friends and neighbors have more or less propositioned them for sex.
As for the reason for all the affairs — I think it has to do with, again, the surfeit of choice available today, combined with the relatively lower stigma associated with adultery (as in articles that tell women (and sometimes men, too, but mostly women) things like adultery is not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, and it is better to do that than to get a divorce and so on). Also we have things like craigslist and Ashley Madison that are designed to facilitate affairs, secret email accounts, multiple cell phones and so on — the ability to have an affair and keep it secret is much higher today than in the past.
As for comparisons, I think it happens with men and women. It happens differently. Men compare appearances, I think. Women compare other things. Women are, for example, much more prone to comparing notes with other women about their husbands (thereby comparing them) than men are with other men about their wives.
“Have some respect for your wife, dude!”
Exactly! That’s what bothers me the most. Comparing me to their wives is very disrespectful. Some women may get a ego boost from that, but I always think about the wife. Because if the situation were reversed, I would want that other women to show that respect for me.
People don’t want to work at relationships anymore. If the married man wants a woman my size, which is pretty thin, why not encourage her to work out and be supportive. Or better yet, just except her for who she is – instead of complaining and comparing me to her or any other woman.
I do believe that being married attracts more men, married or single. I’ve heard plenty of times where women get more attention than ever before after the ring was on the finger. I think with married men who hit on married women, there’s more to loose for the woman if she’s not discreet.
People, in particular women, have this romanticized image of marriage. Once you’re married, life is going to be a fairy tale straight out of a Disney movie. Reality is that marriage is a lot of work. No joke, almost all men that I dated even casually always bring up marriage within the first two to three months. I’m even being pressured now. Knowing the realities of marriage and some of the things I’ve seen, it would be nice to find a man who wants a long-term committment.
Comparing me to their wives is very disrespectful.
And then there are the creepy guys who calmly explain to you that they and their wives have an “open relationship”. Why in the WORLD would I want to sleep with somebody else’s husband?
I’ve heard plenty of times where women get more attention than ever before after the ring was on the finger. I think with married men who hit on married women, there’s more to loose for the woman if she’s not discreet.
Yes! This has been my experience and that of my friends. And the advances are more serious. Instead of shyly asking for my number it’s straight to serious stuff.
Reality is that marriage is a lot of work.
Yes, it is. And it’s more of an investment in the other person than cohabitation is. I’ve done both and, really, it’s like comparing apples to oranges. There’s something about that ring that just changes everything. And once kids show up it’s a whole ‘nother ball game. Back when I was just living together with my boyfriend (previous relationship) I also said things like, “Oh, if he wants to go then let him leave.”
But it’s different if your name, your legal and financial matters, your retirement plans, your investments, and your progeny are merged. You have more to lose. Isn’t that the whole point of marriage? To increase the stakes of breaking up?
I certainly don’t regret getting married, though! I love being married and I totally lucked-out with my choice in husband. I just wish the world around us wasn’t so crazy. I think a lot of married couples feel that way, at least those that I’ve spoken with about this.
But it’s different if your name, your legal and financial matters, your retirement plans, your investments, and your progeny are merged. You have more to lose. Isn’t that the whole point of marriage? To increase the stakes of breaking up?
I didn’t know you need ring for those things, too…
Anyway, I did wore a ring for couple of years (engagement ring), but I did not notice any increace in the male attention I received. So maybe surroundigs matter, too?
Yeah, surroundings matter. Which is why I’ve moved more and more towards a female-only world. A lot of wives eventually do that.
I’m telling you: the ring matters. It didn’t matter immediately (there’s no AHA! effect on your wedding day) but over time it sort of glues itself onto your finger. Marriage matters, at least when the people believe in it and take it seriously.
I actually do belive also that ring matters. I just don’t one have to have a ring to merge finances, get loan for apartment and so on – and, too be honest, I think that these practical thing are the real glue nowadays. Not the ring, even though it definately matters.
If it didn’t matter, I wouldn’t want to get married, would I?
I think that these practical thing are the real glue nowadays
Yeah, but you just can’t beat the romance of ring.
If it didn’t matter, I wouldn’t want to get married, would I?
Yes, marriage can be so wonderful. Do it, take the plunge! LOL. I always get a warm, fuzzy feeling when I hear that someone’s going to get married.
Hmh. My experiences differ a little bit from experinces of Rachel and Black & German. I’m not married (yet), but since I´ve been in a relationship with one man for 7 years and have lived with him almost 3, I think I can participate to this converastion nonetheless.
We are both quite free from jelousy. Of course, I don’t feel being bombarded with married man interest like Rachel & BG are, but on the other hand, most of my friends and acquintances are men. Some are married, some are not, some do flirt with me and I flirt with them – and my guy knows this (I don’t flirt with strangers though – with friends it’s mostly joke and we know that neither of us is serious, strangers might take me seriously). Then again, he flirts with other women and I know about it and it doesn’t bother me at all. I’m with Silas here: if my man wants to cheat me he will do it regardless of my jelousy. So what’s the point of being jelous?
I agree with Rachel that marriage is lot of work but still I think you shouldn’t be too worried about what Rachel and B&G say, Cless. There are rough times, naturally, but if basic “intimacy” of the relationship is still there and both wish to overcome problems they face, things will work out. I had my own crisis last year, “seven year itch”, I suppose and I actually wanted to leave my guy. Partly it was because I had huge crush on some other man at that time, but mostly I was bored, tired, wanted to “see the world alone” – and, to be honest, just to have sex with other men, too. You see I met my man when I was 19 and until 18 I had been very fat and comvinced that I’ll be alone for the rest of my life so basically my whole “find a mate” time was only 4 months from June to October. I missed those years, thought I had lost something, wanted to enjoy male attention while I’m still young and it exists for me.
But my man didn’t wanted to brake up and because, at the bottom, I’m a good girl, I had no nerves to leave him drastically and decided to rethink. He was ready to go to relationship councel with me and do almost everything (well, in the sensible meaning of the word, of course, he’s not door mat type) to keep me. Eventually I decided to stay because he really is a gem and where the hell could I ever find another one? Love hadn’t die after all, we talked a lot, about things we hadn’t talked long long time and I think we got even closer. Now I’m very happy that he didn’t wanted to let me go and if he’ll have crisis like mine, I’ll try to hold on to him, too.
One could think that after this experience my man would have become very jealous but he’s not. I actually thinks it’s quite the opposite, he trusts me even more now. After all, when I had to choose I chose him so he can trust that I’ll chose him next time too. And we have also given more freedom to each other about this matter although no, we are not polyamorous.
So basically what I’m trying to say that I think you can have a good relationship without much jelousy. Yes, marriage is a lot of work and I think we should all try to please are spouses and not to start take them self-evident thinking that what ever we do, they will stay with us. But I don’t see this as combat. I see it as a gift I can give him, my love, my respect, my trust. Yes, sometimes it’s lot of effort but then again, it’s not only making him happy but making myself happy too, because without him being happy, what chances do I have?
Heh. I hope I’ll be at least vaguely understood here…
I understand what you’re saying but, as I noted above, I don’t think “living together” and being married are the same. Marriage has a more intense and sacrificial dynamic to it (which is why the sex is so great!).
I’ve only been married for 5 years but I already feel like we’ve sort of merged into one unit. Losing him wouldn’t just be “losing a man” it’d be more like hacking off an arm. My whole world would fall apart. I could probably scrape it together eventually but it’s still a frightening thought.
I think his jealousy stems from the fact that he feels like that about me but can’t seem to get it through his thick skull that I reciprocate.
So basically what I’m trying to say that I think you can have a good relationship without much jealousy.
Yes, of course. And, as I said before, he’s not really the “jealous type”. It’s completely untypical behaviour for him which is what I find so surprising about it. I think it has less to do with him and me and more to do with the general marriage-climate.
But, I’d like to reiterate: he’s my husband and the father of my children. He’s not expendable or replaceable. If I get bored with him I just can’t go out and get my children a new Daddy.
But I am aware that I am not necessarily part of the majority opinion with that view.
[...] love as a motivator, one can see why I’m averse to combat dating and the casual-sex market: there’s no love in it. There isn’t even luke-warm [...]
Uh oh. Someone is NOT going to like that article.
I’ve got to go pry my kids off of the couch now. But I’ll come back tomorrow to see how much opprobrium you’ve earned.
So sad but a lot of men nowadays date a girl for casual sex. And leave the girl after they get what they wanted.
Well its very beautiful article. I really appreciate your work. Good Work
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